Together Walking

FYI

7/29/2012

This is a public service announcement. Adults and parents everywhere are being advised that your children *will* get upset, say unkind things, act in ways (that you consider) unreasonable, want attention from you when you are either unable or unwilling to give it, and do many other things that is generally considered "poor" behavior - and (this is the important part) - they will do this REGARDLESS OF YOUR PARENTING STYLE.

Yep, you heard me right. (And you heard it here first! Right?!) It doesn't matter if you are an attachment parent, an authoritarian dictator, a spineless pushover, or 2012's Super-Mom of the year - you will have to deal with behavior that is unpleasant and (seemingly) undesirable.

So the question is, what are you going to do when faced with the inevitable? What kind of human being are you going to *choose* to be? Are you going to get out of your comfort zone and try something new, radical, and different? Or are you going to do what everyone else does, what was done to you when you were a child, what you think you "should" do?

I keep hearing people say that "parenting today is what's wrong with the world" and that "children today have no discipline" and on and on. What if when our children struggle they were met with true love and compassion and actually LISTENED to? What lessons would they learn? How would they react when others were having a hard time - if that is what they experienced? What if when our children behave in a way that makes us angry or uncomfortable or is just plain inconvenient, *we* are the ones who actually need to learn a lesson and change our behavior?

FYI - punishment isn't working. If it was we would have solved these issues by now. But maybe these issues aren't "problems" and maybe they don't need to be "solved". Maybe these are all learning opportunities and when we try to open our hearts, even as we feel them contracting, we will learn even more than our children.

Listen, I get it. It's HARD sometimes to do the loving thing. We get annoyed, and have needs and feelings too. But we are the adults and so we must commit ourselves to acting as such. And when we make mistakes or behave poorly ourselves then we admit it and try to do better. That's what children are here to do. To be children and to show us how we can be better.

The answer is always love. It always has been and always will be. We all know it deep down inside too. Stop being scared - scared of the future and what your child *might* be tomorrow. Start loving the person they are in front of you RIGHT NOW. I promise you won't regret it.

10 Comments

Scott link

7/30/2012 02:26:56 pm

I wish every parent would read this

Susan link

7/30/2012 10:28:37 pm

Thanks Scott! That would be pretty awesome ;-)

Megan

7/30/2012 08:53:35 pm

I love all of my children, and when they act out and are disrespectful, I am loving them by punishing them, and teaching them that there are consequences to their actions. I would need more information as to how you teach your children that their negative behaviors need to have consequences...then I might understand better. I am all for a more peaceful existence, believe me. I guess I just don't understand how just listening to them without ever doing anything about their behavior is helping or teaching them.

Susan link

7/30/2012 10:41:44 pm

Megan,

Thanks for reading and your comment. I really appreciate your thoughts and I know lots of people wonder the same things that you are. Also I have NO DOUBT that you love your children.

This topic is a big one and not easily answered in one blog comment so I will try to explain a few things, but hopefully things will get clearer with more information over a longer people of time.

First, I know that your kids are older than mine and I know that I will continue to be challenged as my kids grow in ways I cannot even begin to imagine right now. But I am so grateful that I started this path when my kids were so little because it is much easier to start now than later. I can see the natural unfolding of living this way as we go... and I don't have to "undo" things later.

As far as teaching my children... if they do something that is truly "negative" there will be consequences REGARDLESS of what I "do". (If they are mean to another child or each other for example - there will be a reaction) Children *know* when they do something that is out of line with their natural feel-good state - they do not need to be taught.

Also, not punishing does NOT equal doing nothing - although sometimes it might feel or look that way. But there are obvious times when action is necessary - when little brother is hitting or pushing for example. We stop this behavior physically if necessary and use words to explain that this behavior is NOT acceptable, and why if necessary.

What we do is often dependent on age. When children are young distraction or helping move to a new activity is necessary. And of course modeling respectful behaviors and reactions.

But quite honestly I have seen again and again how effective waiting, being silent, and doing "nothing" is. My daughter has apologized to me countless times and always knows when she could do better (she is 6). It's not easy when we are upset and want to do something... Also she is not perfect, but she is very mature for her age.

The main point for me in this post is that until you can prove that children who are punished are behaving better or learning the "lessons" better I'm not buying it. In fact I think it is bologna.

If you need proof look at adults - how many adults are handling their lives and circumstances in the healthiest manner? How many have tantrums and treat others poorly? How many aren't sure how to deal with adversity or someone doing something they don't like? Chances are good these adults were punished... so is it working?

Well this is getting quite long! I hope we can keep the conversation going and I will continue to try and post links and resources that help clarify. I know it's hard to imagine what parenting like this looks like if you haven't seen it in action.

Sarah

7/30/2012 09:32:07 pm

When punishment doesn't work, it's most likely due to lack of consistency. Like Megan said, children need to punished when they disobey; they need to be taught about the consequences of their actions (good and bad). And the punishment needs to hurt (either physically or mentally) for it to have any affect. And punishment needs to be given out of love. Yes, I do believe there are parents who do not punish out of love, but out of anger and annoyance, and I do not agree with that.

Those who spare the rod of discipline hate their children.
Those who love their children care enough to discipline them.
Proverbs 13:24

To discipline a child produces wisdom,
but a mother is disgraced by an undisciplined child.
Proverbs 29:15

Susan link

7/30/2012 10:56:01 pm

Sarah,

Thanks for reading and for your comment. I really appreciate the conversation and thoughtfulness spurred so far by this post.

First, I have seen how punishment can "work" first hand in my own child. When Marisol was still pretty much a baby (around 18 months) I tried time-out with her (I remember 2 times). Basically, YES it did affect her BEHAVIOR. I remember one time in particular that she did something once early in the day and I gave her timeout. Later that day she went to do it again and I asked if she needed timeout and she stopped immediately (that girl is no dummy! One smart cookie if I do say so myself ;-)

But she also cried hysterically when put in time out. She was distraught. She definitely experienced the punishment as a separation from me (which I chose) and a loss of love. Whether we think we are doing something out of love is not as important as how our child EXPERIENCES the action. And now looking back from where I am now, I would not even punish her for those things. Many times children are punished for "not listening" and parents are telling them not to do something because their actions are inconvenient and it is more work for the parent to be with the child and keep them safe. In essence there is a clash between what the child wants and the parents want.

So how punishment "works" is up for debate. Yes it can change behaviors. But I would be really careful in assuming what your child is learning. And if they will continue the behavior when they are out of your sight. I want my children to make good choices because they have developed an internal barometer for what is right - not because they are fearful of punishment.

As for children NEEDING punishment (and that it NEEDS to hurt) - I cannot agree. Why do they need it? Do you need it when you screw up?

I have seen people quote this bible passage on both "sides" of this issue. I have to look it up but I believe the root word is about teaching or following. The kind of parenting I believe in and *try* to practice takes a lot more time, effort, and plain being right there with your child (especially young child) - if you are not, you are right, it won't "work".

Thanks again for taking the time to comment! I have to go play now ;-)

Sarah

7/31/2012 12:36:34 am

Your second paragraph makes me question why you think punishment and discipline doesn't "work." It clearly worked in your child.

The fact that she cried hysterically and was distraught is a good thing; it means the punishment was affective. Yes, it's tough to see our children hurting and sad, but she wouldn't have learned anything if she just sat happily in time-out and felt no distress. Punishment is not a separation or loss of love from a parent, it's just the opposite.

It IS important to punish out of love and yes, I agree, it's also important how that child experiences the punishment. Like I said above, if the child sits happily in time out, what's the point? That punishment is not affective for that child. Every child is different - some respond immediately to a punishment, and for others it my take repeat offenses. And some punishments don't work for some children; a time-out may suffice for one, a spanking for another, or taking away a privilege.

I do agree that a parent shouldn't punishment due to inconveniences. I believe punishment should be for blatant disobedience and disrespect. I don't believe that kids running around and being loud are reasons for punishment. They are just being kids. If a child breaks a known rule or is disrespectful, then a punishment is necessary.

I believe children DO learn from be punished. How can they not? You proved it in your second paragraph. And yes, some children will be repeat offenders and even carry on the undesired behavior when out of sight, and that's to be expected. We are sinners by nature; we are born sinners and it is our nature. That is why it is our job as parents to train our children and teach them appropriate behaviors - and I believe punishment is one of the means of doing that. I also believe that punishment is one way to help develop that "internal barometer" for what is right and wrong.

Children need to learn the consequences of their behaviors. Does every child NEED punishment to achieve this? No. But they need to feel the hurt of the consequences to learn anything from it. And one way to accomplish that is punishment. And yes, I believe the consequence NEEDS to hurt, or how else will they learn they shouldn't do that?

Even as an adult, I make mistakes. I'm not perfect, I'm human. Will I be spanked or put in time out when I screw up? No. But I still need to learn and experience the consequences.

The kind of parenting you believe in and *try* to practice takes a lot more time, effort, and plain being right there with your child then what other kinds of parenting? The kind of parenting I practice takes a lot of time, effort, and being with my child too.

I have to go teach now! ;)

Susan link

7/31/2012 10:29:49 pm

Sarah,

First I want to apologize if you felt insulted by what I wrote (especially in my reply to your comment) - and I want you to know that I totally see how it could be taken as condescending, judgemental etc. Just being a parent takes so much time, effort and of course BEING with your child regardless of how you actually choose to "do it". I guess the point that I was trying to make is that trying to parent without punishment is not a short term kind of goal/solution and how I do things actually probably seems ridiculous or over-the-top to many people. And I am fine with that!

My point in talking about my daughter is that my definition of how something is "working" has changed significantly. I no longer believe changing the behavior is sufficient or even the most desirable goal. Most behaviors will be grown out of as the child matures so instead of punishing being more proactive and present is often the best way to deal with things (although not usually the easiest or more efficient). When that isn't enough then I try other things...

I think that we are coming from 2 very different starting points - and that's ok! I no longer can look at children (or humanity) as "sinners" by nature, even though I've been raised Christian my whole life. I wrote about that earlier this spring ( http://togetherwalking.weebly.com/1/post/2012/04/friday-confessions-fear-and-judgement-parts-1-and-2.html )

I'm also seeing what is most effective for myself in making changes (in myself) and castigating myself (essentially a punishment) has not been nearly effective as pure love (affirmations, meditating, taking care of my own needs). I've also seen (FOR MYSELF) how actions that lead to disconnection with my child (or someone else's - done lots of nannying/babysitting) has made it easier to repeat in the future, and I want to go for connection. Most of what I believe in I do because it inherently makes sense to me. It is because I want to model love, respect, and how to live peacefully - what I'm saying is that what I'm choosing is as much about the person I want to be as it is about my child, and about our relationship. I *do* believe that some children experience punishment as loss of love. Also I see a trend that when one punishment doesn't "work" harsher measures are then implemented - for example spanking - I will never agree with hitting another person.

Another reason punishment doesn't jibe with me is that I believe that we are all inherently good (but imperfect) and that we want to feel good - punishment doesn't feel good for parent or child.

Whew! I guess that is all... I think my "I have to go play now" rubbed you the wrong way too - funnily enough I actually don't really believe in teaching anymore (I know, weird coming from a former teacher, daughter of teacher, granddaughter of two teachers!) - but I do believe in learning and that the best way to learn is to play! But that's a whole 'nother topic.

Sending you so much love... Thank you for the conversation and the opportunity to clarify.

Susan

lyla link

8/2/2012 01:55:57 am

i don't have a lot of time and much has already been said (or is on my blog, if anyone's interested), but i just wanted to say that i have 2 teens (one nearly an adult) and many friends with grown or nearly grown children who have been raised without punishments or rewards of any kind and are all beautiful, responsible, compassionate, loving, respectful, curious, vibrant people who are contributing members of society and community. it absolutely "works" and children most definitely learn about the impact and consequences of their actions naturally and without emotional damage or damage to the parent child relationship this way. i gave a conference presentation in may on a related topic that says all i have to say on this topic:

http://lylawolf.blogspot.com/2012/05/only-parenting-mistake-i-ever-made-over.html

oh, and i want to echo the "we don't know what they do when they aren't with us" concept - except i have seen with my own eyes what kids who are punished do behind their parents' backs. it is NOT what parents think.

Susan link

8/6/2012 01:36:38 pm

Thank you so much for taking time to comment and chime in Lyla! It is so valuable to hear the perspective of a parent of older children, and I really appreciate you contributing to the conversation here. I have learned so much from you and other families that share your experiences and am so grateful that there are people out there willing to share.

I checked out this blog post of yours before but I'm going to read it/watch the slide show again. I hope someday to be at a conference in person - and maybe even meet you! ;-)

FYI

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